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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with author and well-known atheist john

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Loftus about his book The Outsider test

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for fate how to know which religion is

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true when we falsified the idea that you

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are this biological robot we accept that

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that's absurd and once we get past the

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idea that consciousness ends at death

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when I cross that chasm and I say okay

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that's the evidence and I have to deal

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with it a lot of things start falling

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differently in terms of how I orient

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myself to morals purpose meaning in life

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you are not a biological robot well you

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are you okay all right fine I mean I

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disagree and I've said why so um of

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course you does a great you stand up and

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say I am a biological robot I am gonna

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stand by that well there's no evidence

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for invisible beings or entities hey but

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but you as you live your life you live

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your life like a biological robot

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everybody does some it's all there is

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okay I don't want to discount your

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questions I don't want to I think that

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you might be doing a service to atheists

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I encourage the exploration of all the

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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host Alex Karras and this

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episode of skeptic 0 is yet another in

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this series i've been doing on atheism

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now i do feel a need to tell you a

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little bit about how i came to do this

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interview because as you know if you've

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listened you just heard a similar kind

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of debate with philosophy professor dr.

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steven law and actually these two

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interviews with dr. law and john Loftus

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came about as the result of my interview

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on episode 217 with Gary Marcus because

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Aaron Marcus of course is this NYU

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professor of psychology best-selling

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author writes frequently unconsciousness

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issues yet if you listen to the

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interview stumbled with some basic

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questions about consciousness and

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surprisingly but i guess not

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surprisingly for me because i keep

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pounding on this drum is essentially

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atheistic in his thinking that is

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academia is atheistic so you go to a guy

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like Gary Marcus he's not waving the

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flag for atheism but you pushed through

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just a little bit and boom there it has

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the same kind of talking points parroted

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back to you that you hear from atheists

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so that led me to saying you know I

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really need to revisit the Atheist

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proposition directly and establish a

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dialogue with some atheists so the way

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that I often do that is I go to Amazon

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and I look for the best-selling books in

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the category i'm interested in in this

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case is atheism and I came up with dr.

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Stephen laws book and I also came up

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with john Loftus this book so it's kind

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of a numbers game in inviting guests on

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you don't get everyone you ask so a lot

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of times I'll go out with a couple of

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requests and hope to get one in this

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case I got both of them I got one and

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then left a week later John Loftus

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responded and said hey I missed the

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email but I'd be happy to do it so I

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felt obligated and I felt like there was

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enough of a difference between the two

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that I could pursue both of them because

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they really cover two different aspects

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of the atheism prop

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one is the philosophy of science

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proposition that you heard from dr.

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Stephen law that I think doesn't hold up

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very well and from the discussion we've

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had he doesn't really come off as

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sounding like he has a very strong case

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but will kind of leave that as it is and

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then the second is this religious thrust

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that you get from john Loftus whose

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website is all about debunking

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Christianity but as you'll hear in this

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dialogue seems to come up short and

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actually some somewhat convoluted once

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you get past some of these silly empty

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tomb Christianity kind of debate and let

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me add one more thing that I've said in

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the past but I think bears repeating

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these kind of interviews are among the

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most important kind of interviews I can

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do that I can bring forward because I

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believe the number one thing that holds

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people back from making their own

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personal paradigm shift beyond the

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silliness of this you are a biological

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robot meme that gets jammed down your

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throat the number one barrier is wow

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there's so many smart people out there

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that go along with that idea how can all

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these really smart people be wrong so in

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that sense I think exposing how an

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Oxford philosopher and an NYU professor

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of psychology and a well-known author

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and blogger who who really seems to have

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his stuff together when he debates

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Christians can stumble so miserably over

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basic fundamental questions that we

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address every week on skeptical

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questions of consciousness questions of

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how do we resolve the overwhelming

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evidence that suggests that

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consciousness isn't solely a function of

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the brain I mean that data is there and

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we talked about that data a lot but the

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big gap is why doesn't that data

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penetrate why doesn't it make a

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difference and that really requires

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studying the people that you would

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expect to be in a position to know

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better who for whatever reason have not

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allowed that data to penetrate their

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worldview

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oh and one more thing to add to this

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introduction before I let it go out the

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door and by the way there's quite a bit

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I have to say at the conclusion this

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interview so do stick around for that

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but before we get there one more thing

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to add because you've heard this charge

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so many times sandbagging blindsighted

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all that stuff that these guys say over

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and over and over again whenever they

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lose so I did I almost forgot to but I

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managed to go back and look at the

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original email that i sent to john

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Loftus when I invited him on skeptic oh

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I have to read this for you because here

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is a guy who's blindsided let's see how

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I invited him on the show hi John I'd

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like to know if you'd be available for

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an interview to discuss your blog in

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recent book The Outsider test for faith

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while I've enjoyed many of your

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withering attacks on goofy Christian

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apologetics I am always left wondering

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whether the science of human

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consciousness has been brought to the

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table do people have genuine spiritual

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experiences ? is our mind purely a

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function of our brain ? are these topics

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/ questions you've examined and would

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you be open to discussing them on

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skeptic oh ? followed by my usual

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boilerplate about skeptic oh and some of

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our previous guests blindsided indeed

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okay thanks for bearing through this

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long introduction here's my dialogue

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with john Loftus today we welcome John W

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Loftus to skeptic Oh John has an

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interesting background having earned

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advanced degrees in theology and

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philosophy at Lincoln seminary and again

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at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

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where he studied under none other than

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dr. William Lane Craig all of that

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before leaving the Christian Church and

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becoming a popular atheist author and

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auger jon is here to talk about his new

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book The Outsider test for faith how to

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know which religion is true quite a

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provocative title John welcome to

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skeptical and thanks for joining me well

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thanks for having me appreciate it so

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can you start by telling folks what is

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the outsider test and how you came up

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with it well the outside of test for

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faith is a test to determine though you

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know which religion is true if there is

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one and it asks people to test their own

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faith in with the same standards that

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they use when examining other faiths

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it's to test their own faith as if they

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were non-believers you know in their own

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because that's how they test the faith's

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that they reject and how I came up with

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it was you know with online discussions

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i run the blog debunking christianity

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and you know i was told by some

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christian apologist that you know i'm

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ignorant that i really don't understand

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the christian bait because you can't

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understand it unless you're an insider

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to it and well you know i was a former

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Christian you know you know with three

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masters degrees one of them earned under

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you know when Lane Craig I mean you know

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the ignorance charge really doesn't

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stick with me I you know and yet still

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they were right innocence because at

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that point having rejected you know my

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Christian faith I was at that point an

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outsider and I realized that there is a

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different sort of standard when you're

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an outsider to a faith as as I was

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inside I was indoctrinated to believe I

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didn't know different and so I accepted

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it and when I accepted it I prefer to be

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true and I argued that it was true from

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an insider's perspective and you know I

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just dawned on me that the proper way to

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evaluate any

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including one zone is to do so as a

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non-believer that's that's the only

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appropriate way to do so and so then now

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you know I proposed outside test faith

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you know to examine your own faith and

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with the same standards that you examine

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the other religions that you reject and

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you know I got a lot of backlash from it

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from Christian philosophers and this

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book is the culmination of a lot of

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thought on on what it entails and to a

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deal with the objections to it that

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heaven suits since that time well I have

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to say I thought it was great it's one

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of those books where the title really

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captures it pretty much you dig into it

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you go wow that makes a lot of intuitive

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sense and I have to tell you I have a

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little experience with the outsider test

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for faith because i was preparing for

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this show and i got an email from a

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listener and it was one of those emails

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we like to get you know was a guy i'll

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call him andy and he was like hey man i

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like the show i like how you square off

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against this scientific materialism and

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then he started telling me that i was a

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little bit off on my kind of

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anti-christian rhetoric and then he laid

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into me with a lot of Scripture I don't

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usually read emails that have a lot of

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Scripture I usually kind of slide past

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those but I said hey here's an

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opportunity I told him that I'm going to

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be interviewing you I said here is this

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guy outside her test for faith Andy why

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don't you take the outsider test through

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an email exchange and he did so let me

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let me ask you since you've been through

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this over and over and over again how do

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you think that went and then I'll tell

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you how it went well usually they

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initially rejected usually Christians

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will hear of it and reject it outright

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as skewed because probably because its

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proposed by an atheist and they figure

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any anyhow to any test for faith that's

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proposed by an atheist it's got to be

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skewed got to be wrong so initially my

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guess is he objected to it and you know

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maybe in the process of discussing that

273
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with him he may have come to realize

274
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well you know this is not so bad after

275
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and you know he probably he might claim

276
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well my my faith passes the test after

277
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all am I wrong well the last part is

278
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definitely where we wound up I'll give

279
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you a quick recap the first round was

280
00:12:59,870 --> 00:12:58,590
more scripture and I said hey Andy we

281
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can't really play that game I mean you

282
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can't use scripture to validate

283
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Scripture kind of get in this circular

284
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thing but he rallied he came around to

285
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that and in the second round he came

286
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along with I think the apologist line of

287
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defense which I see which is it's not as

288
00:13:22,370 --> 00:13:20,400
bad as it seems you know okay maybe we

289
00:13:24,350 --> 00:13:22,380
have some problems maybe we're not

290
00:13:27,950 --> 00:13:24,360
perfect but it's not as bad as it seems

291
00:13:30,530 --> 00:13:27,960
you know here's some rebuttals to bart

292
00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:30,540
Airmen and the rest to which I said yeah

293
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:32,700
but that's not really the outsider test

294
00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:35,040
the outsider test would be why not

295
00:13:40,220 --> 00:13:38,760
Mormonism why not Joseph Smith which he

296
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got in the spirit of it but it kind of

297
00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:41,850
came back to yell but well if I really

298
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do it then my religion really is best

299
00:13:50,780 --> 00:13:46,940
let me show you why Jesus is better than

300
00:13:53,540 --> 00:13:50,790
everybody else kind of thing so I don't

301
00:13:56,170 --> 00:13:53,550
know what's what's how do you get

302
00:13:59,630 --> 00:13:56,180
through with the outsider test for faith

303
00:14:02,210 --> 00:13:59,640
well you know it's difficult with a the

304
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:02,220
mind of a believer because most of them

305
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:04,410
were never argued into their faith in

306
00:14:10,430 --> 00:14:08,010
the first place so it's unlikely we can

307
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:10,440
argue them out of it you know that's I

308
00:14:13,790 --> 00:14:12,450
have to say that's one point that Andy

309
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:13,800
made that I do give him credit for at

310
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:15,600
the end and I and I appreciate you know

311
00:14:19,730 --> 00:14:18,000
it's straight-up guy he really got into

312
00:14:21,230 --> 00:14:19,740
it and exchanged this with me and I

313
00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:21,240
appreciate that but his point at the end

314
00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:23,040
he said you know one point I'd like to X

315
00:14:28,070 --> 00:14:25,620
ask Loftus is you know what's an

316
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:28,080
outsider none of us are outsiders we all

317
00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:31,310
come to the game with some baggage and

318
00:14:37,490 --> 00:14:35,790
what would be a response to that oh well

319
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:37,500
we know what it's like to be an outsider

320
00:14:44,330 --> 00:14:41,970
of other religious faiths and so I don't

321
00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:44,340
see a problem with you know singling out

322
00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:48,780
a religious faith from the other

323
00:14:54,380 --> 00:14:51,420
cultural you know beliefs that we might

324
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:54,390
have and examining that you know one

325
00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:55,850
piece of our

326
00:15:01,780 --> 00:14:58,130
world you at a time I think that

327
00:15:03,939 --> 00:15:01,790
Christians misunderstand the difference

328
00:15:08,769 --> 00:15:03,949
between you know a religion and a

329
00:15:11,829 --> 00:15:08,779
worldview what they think is the case is

330
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:11,839
is that what they believe is part of

331
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:13,850
their total worldview such that you we

332
00:15:19,180 --> 00:15:16,810
can't extricate one's religious faith

333
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:19,190
from that world view without subjecting

334
00:15:24,189 --> 00:15:22,490
our whole worldview you know to the test

335
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:24,199
and you know quite frankly we can't

336
00:15:29,350 --> 00:15:27,050
really do that I mean we can't question

337
00:15:32,980 --> 00:15:29,360
everything that we believe at the same

338
00:15:35,889 --> 00:15:32,990
time we do have a multi-faceted number

339
00:15:37,629 --> 00:15:35,899
of beliefs and conclusions that we've

340
00:15:39,970 --> 00:15:37,639
arrived at that you know there's just

341
00:15:42,879 --> 00:15:39,980
impossible psychologically speaking to

342
00:15:44,319 --> 00:15:42,889
question them all at the same time but

343
00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:44,329
we know what it's like to question our

344
00:15:48,129 --> 00:15:45,889
political beliefs we know what it's like

345
00:15:50,290 --> 00:15:48,139
to you know question our ethical beliefs

346
00:15:52,930 --> 00:15:50,300
we know what it's like to you know

347
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:52,940
question anything you know someone says

348
00:15:59,139 --> 00:15:55,370
that they levitated and we know how to

349
00:16:01,600 --> 00:15:59,149
single that you know out for scrutiny so

350
00:16:03,819 --> 00:16:01,610
they misunderstand that the you know

351
00:16:06,220 --> 00:16:03,829
one's religious belief is not equivalent

352
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:06,230
to one's whole worldview and to get that

353
00:16:12,759 --> 00:16:09,680
point across what we do is we just

354
00:16:15,939 --> 00:16:12,769
simply you know talk about the kinds of

355
00:16:18,460 --> 00:16:15,949
things that we maintain even though we

356
00:16:21,460 --> 00:16:18,470
reject our faith now we can ask us x

357
00:16:23,499 --> 00:16:21,470
believers that question and you know I

358
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:23,509
mean princess I didn't reject my

359
00:16:29,889 --> 00:16:26,000
language I still speak you know English

360
00:16:32,170 --> 00:16:29,899
I didn't reject the ol love I didn't

361
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:32,180
reject you know how I negotiate the

362
00:16:39,610 --> 00:16:37,490
price of a car i I didn't reject the

363
00:16:42,819 --> 00:16:39,620
loving of my family you know there's a

364
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:42,829
host of things that I have maintained

365
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:46,250
throughout my you know my skeptical

366
00:16:51,629 --> 00:16:49,490
quest because you know I'm living

367
00:16:55,139 --> 00:16:51,639
testament that you can subject your

368
00:16:57,699 --> 00:16:55,149
religious states to a separate inquiry

369
00:17:00,699 --> 00:16:57,709
and still maintain everything else that

370
00:17:02,949 --> 00:17:00,709
you believe not a lot of things have

371
00:17:05,230 --> 00:17:02,959
fallen by the wayside but there's a lot

372
00:17:07,390 --> 00:17:05,240
of things that you know I still have

373
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:07,400
maintained throughout you know that

374
00:17:15,100 --> 00:17:10,970
that quest so it's like a boat analogy

375
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:15,110
and I write about this in my book you

376
00:17:20,770 --> 00:17:17,510
know we can we can simply can replace

377
00:17:23,290 --> 00:17:20,780
one plank in our boat at a time now the

378
00:17:26,980 --> 00:17:23,300
ones religious faith is definitely a big

379
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:26,990
plank but you know when we're at sea if

380
00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:30,290
one plank of our boat is leaky in we can

381
00:17:35,950 --> 00:17:32,950
replace it and without you know

382
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:35,960
replacing the whole boat hey I love that

383
00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:40,310
analogy I just wonder how that really

384
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:44,000
holds up in this kind of culture war

385
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:46,910
battle that we're in you know I love the

386
00:17:51,730 --> 00:17:48,850
approach that you take in terms of

387
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:51,740
separating those world views from your

388
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:54,050
religious views but I wonder if that's

389
00:17:58,420 --> 00:17:56,480
how the game is really played it's like

390
00:18:01,480 --> 00:17:58,430
when I hear some of these debates

391
00:18:03,340 --> 00:18:01,490
between atheists and christians I'm like

392
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:03,350
wow that's really kind of missing the

393
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:06,410
point because most Christians are not

394
00:18:12,430 --> 00:18:09,170
all that Christian and most atheists are

395
00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:12,440
not all that atheists atheistic in the

396
00:18:17,290 --> 00:18:14,750
way that you're saying but on the other

397
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:17,300
hand when i read your site debunking

398
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:21,170
christianity and you Chronicle and

399
00:18:27,490 --> 00:18:24,770
document how deeply woven some of these

400
00:18:31,660 --> 00:18:27,500
religious beliefs are into our culture

401
00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:31,670
into our society I go you know maybe we

402
00:18:38,740 --> 00:18:35,600
have to replace it more than one plank

403
00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:38,750
at a time and I wonder if that's where

404
00:18:42,940 --> 00:18:41,140
you're going can we really say

405
00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:42,950
philosophically like you're saying well

406
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:44,420
I'm just going to kind of carve this

407
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:46,580
religious peace out but I'm going to go

408
00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:49,760
forward with the other claims that

409
00:18:54,610 --> 00:18:52,040
Christians make about the world view

410
00:18:57,490 --> 00:18:54,620
don't we have to step back and say well

411
00:18:59,800 --> 00:18:57,500
what about the atheist claims for my

412
00:19:02,950 --> 00:18:59,810
worldview let me ask you do you believe

413
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:02,960
that modern atheism makes any claims

414
00:19:08,890 --> 00:19:06,110
about worldview kind of issues because I

415
00:19:14,830 --> 00:19:08,900
think they do um you know I think that

416
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:14,840
the best answer is no the best answer is

417
00:19:20,850 --> 00:19:19,490
that atheism is non-belief I mean the

418
00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:20,860
word atheism means

419
00:19:29,580 --> 00:19:26,350
a theism that is non theism and by

420
00:19:32,130 --> 00:19:29,590
extension non-believer we don't believe

421
00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:32,140
just like we don't believe that you know

422
00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:34,420
some guy levitated you know who claims

423
00:19:40,110 --> 00:19:38,559
that he did we basically say you know

424
00:19:41,789 --> 00:19:40,120
show me the evidence but basically an

425
00:19:43,740 --> 00:19:41,799
atheist is someone who says you know I

426
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:43,750
don't think there is enough evidence to

427
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:48,130
believe this now what is the this well

428
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:50,650
it's virgin births its resurrections

429
00:19:55,289 --> 00:19:52,510
from the dead this asses the talk is

430
00:20:01,470 --> 00:19:55,299
donkeys that you know talk snakes it

431
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:01,480
that walk walk we don't believe that now

432
00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:04,960
it's those kind of things levitating

433
00:20:11,870 --> 00:20:08,710
Buddhist etc and so I'm you know that

434
00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:14,370
indoctrinated within our own culture to

435
00:20:19,049 --> 00:20:17,470
believe a host of things as well it's

436
00:20:22,110 --> 00:20:19,059
just that those are the kinds of things

437
00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:22,120
that we don't believe now I do think

438
00:20:28,289 --> 00:20:26,049
that once one becomes an atheist then

439
00:20:31,919 --> 00:20:28,299
they do see the world a bit differently

440
00:20:34,799 --> 00:20:31,929
so you know that that's true as well but

441
00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:34,809
that's a gradual process I mean I I mean

442
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:37,630
I have to face the fact that this is the

443
00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:40,450
only life I love or live that's that's a

444
00:20:45,060 --> 00:20:41,860
you know that can be a life changing

445
00:20:48,990 --> 00:20:45,070
thing for me and that I will never see

446
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:49,000
my my dad who died in 88 again those

447
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:50,530
kind of things and that I have to decide

448
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:52,690
on my own how to live my life you know

449
00:20:56,850 --> 00:20:54,570
apart from a you know divine authority

450
00:20:59,100 --> 00:20:56,860
that there are a lot of things that go

451
00:21:01,289 --> 00:20:59,110
go with that you know I no longer have

452
00:21:04,409 --> 00:21:01,299
the answers you know to questions from

453
00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:04,419
divine authority you know so there's a

454
00:21:07,950 --> 00:21:06,160
lot that goes with the rejection of

455
00:21:10,260 --> 00:21:07,960
one's religion okay I'll grant I'll

456
00:21:12,930 --> 00:21:10,270
grant you that and there's a lot that an

457
00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:12,940
atheist will you know usually conclude

458
00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:16,390
you know you know as an atheist oh I'll

459
00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:18,120
grant that to like you said I grant that

460
00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:21,040
but I just think I see no reason to

461
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:25,540
suppose that we can't subject you know

462
00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:28,410
one of our one of our culturally

463
00:21:33,930 --> 00:21:32,110
indoctrinated beliefs to to a test now I

464
00:21:36,180 --> 00:21:33,940
would have to guess that the religion

465
00:21:38,519 --> 00:21:36,190
belief that one has is probably you know

466
00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:38,529
the biggest plank in the boat you know I

467
00:21:43,590 --> 00:21:41,529
mean I'll have to grant that and I also

468
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:43,600
after grant that once one becomes an

469
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:47,110
atheist then then he or she will reject

470
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:50,080
the the the morality that they think is

471
00:21:55,379 --> 00:21:52,210
found in the Bible you know whatever

472
00:21:56,909 --> 00:21:55,389
that is but they can decide to love on

473
00:22:00,240 --> 00:21:56,919
their own you know they can decide to

474
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:00,250
care for people on their own that's the

475
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:01,690
problem i guess and i didn't know you're

476
00:22:06,629 --> 00:22:04,090
going to go quite that far with what

477
00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:06,639
your beliefs are because i think some of

478
00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:08,080
those beliefs are tricky i mean it would

479
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:10,000
have to be subjected to the same kind of

480
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:12,159
scientific criteria that we would

481
00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:14,559
subject anything to that's maybe another

482
00:22:19,649 --> 00:22:17,500
discussion but i will when you say I'm

483
00:22:21,149 --> 00:22:19,659
you're still open to love you're still

484
00:22:23,369 --> 00:22:21,159
open to some kind of morals but their

485
00:22:24,869 --> 00:22:23,379
morals of choice I mean people who

486
00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:24,879
listen this show might get tired of this

487
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:26,620
because we just hash this out at length

488
00:22:31,499 --> 00:22:29,200
on the forum but I'd suggest you you're

489
00:22:35,909 --> 00:22:31,509
a philosopher that that's logically

490
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:35,919
inconsistent I mean if life has no

491
00:22:44,639 --> 00:22:39,850
meaning there is no good in bad then if

492
00:22:47,460 --> 00:22:44,649
consciousness as Daniel Dennett says is

493
00:22:50,009 --> 00:22:47,470
an illusion then it's all an illusion

494
00:22:52,019 --> 00:22:50,019
right love is an illusion everything is

495
00:22:54,210 --> 00:22:52,029
an illusion good or bad is an illusion I

496
00:22:56,879 --> 00:22:54,220
don't know how we can really pick and

497
00:22:58,649 --> 00:22:56,889
choose those planks the way that you're

498
00:23:00,499 --> 00:22:58,659
you're kind of talking about isn't it

499
00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:00,509
kind of an all-or-nothing proposition

500
00:23:08,269 --> 00:23:05,440
well you know I know it's not i'm not

501
00:23:11,430 --> 00:23:08,279
exactly where of your previous you know

502
00:23:14,850 --> 00:23:11,440
podcasts and no you know where you land

503
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:14,860
on these sorts of issues it is tricky i

504
00:23:19,669 --> 00:23:16,960
mean it is tricky i don't for instance

505
00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:19,679
think that that we can come to our

506
00:23:26,879 --> 00:23:23,820
conclusions very easily very readily

507
00:23:30,539 --> 00:23:26,889
maybe we don't have free will like

508
00:23:33,330 --> 00:23:30,549
Daniel then it says maybe consciousness

509
00:23:36,899 --> 00:23:33,340
is an illusion I mean you know maybe we

510
00:23:39,539 --> 00:23:36,909
live in a matrix to you know maybe there

511
00:23:41,490 --> 00:23:39,549
isn't a material world these are the

512
00:23:44,249 --> 00:23:41,500
kinds of questions that philosophers ask

513
00:23:47,630 --> 00:23:44,259
but you know even if we were to live in

514
00:23:51,780 --> 00:23:47,640
an illusion say the matrix if I may

515
00:23:54,420 --> 00:23:51,790
that doesn't make any difference because

516
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:54,430
you know we still have to live in the

517
00:23:59,370 --> 00:23:56,410
illusion I mean we still have to make

518
00:24:01,650 --> 00:23:59,380
choices in the illusion why why would

519
00:24:03,690 --> 00:24:01,660
why would we perpetuate that at all I

520
00:24:06,540 --> 00:24:03,700
mean it gets to the really deep

521
00:24:09,150 --> 00:24:06,550
philosophical question of why choose

522
00:24:10,740 --> 00:24:09,160
life at all I mean it's all it's all an

523
00:24:12,810 --> 00:24:10,750
illusion there's nothing there you're

524
00:24:14,910 --> 00:24:12,820
not doing anything nothing is happening

525
00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:14,920
you're not moving towards anything your

526
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:16,750
parents don't matter your children don't

527
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:19,090
matter nothing matters I mean that is a

528
00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:21,250
lot among are you playing the devil's

529
00:24:26,820 --> 00:24:24,550
advocate with me because I find that

530
00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:26,830
ludicrous you know I find it ludicrous

531
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:29,020
to say that nothing matters I mean

532
00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:31,450
really I did too but that's it that's at

533
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:33,880
the core of this this how then where did

534
00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:35,530
what matters then how do we decide what

535
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:44,470
matters um it doesn't matter now in in

536
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:49,410
August of 2013 what I do in life a

537
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:52,360
million years from now I mean a million

538
00:24:58,220 --> 00:24:55,650
years from now nothing I have ever done

539
00:25:02,550 --> 00:24:58,230
matters it doesn't matter so ultimately

540
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:02,560
nothing matters but it does matter to

541
00:25:07,710 --> 00:25:04,450
the people I love and the people who

542
00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:07,720
love me my friends I mean it's it's own

543
00:25:11,670 --> 00:25:09,580
so I find that ludicrous to say nothing

544
00:25:14,370 --> 00:25:11,680
matters no such thing as there's no such

545
00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:14,380
thing as love love is an illusion love

546
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:15,880
is an illusion there's a it's this

547
00:25:20,010 --> 00:25:17,650
chemical reaction you have in your brain

548
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:20,020
that you're programmed to do and it's

549
00:25:24,570 --> 00:25:22,810
yeah I'm your your scoffing but i scoff

550
00:25:27,540 --> 00:25:24,580
too i think the whole idea that we don't

551
00:25:29,220 --> 00:25:27,550
have free will is is ludicrous i think

552
00:25:32,460 --> 00:25:29,230
the idea that love isn't real is

553
00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:32,470
ludicrous but i think in that same way I

554
00:25:39,690 --> 00:25:37,180
think we never examine fully those

555
00:25:41,550 --> 00:25:39,700
claims that are being made by atheists

556
00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:41,560
we wind up talking about codices and

557
00:25:47,910 --> 00:25:45,670
empty tombs and other crazy stuff but we

558
00:25:51,870 --> 00:25:47,920
never talk about what's at the core of

559
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:51,880
this idea that you are as Dawkins

560
00:25:57,390 --> 00:25:54,970
Richard Dawkins says a biological robot

561
00:25:59,670 --> 00:25:57,400
and I think that is at the core of this

562
00:26:00,580 --> 00:25:59,680
debate because Christians aren't all

563
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:00,590
that Christian

564
00:26:06,039 --> 00:26:02,570
and atheists aren't all that atheistic

565
00:26:09,669 --> 00:26:06,049
what people say is you guys say nothing

566
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:09,679
and I say something you guys say

567
00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:12,559
biological robot and I say ain't no

568
00:26:17,860 --> 00:26:15,080
biological robot and you want to talk

569
00:26:19,539 --> 00:26:17,870
about free will hell yes I have free

570
00:26:22,419 --> 00:26:19,549
will of course I have free will it's

571
00:26:24,930 --> 00:26:22,429
obvious I have free will from your

572
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:24,940
philosophical background isn't there a

573
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:27,200
philosophical gap there aren't you kind

574
00:26:31,899 --> 00:26:29,570
of trying to place a middle ground there

575
00:26:34,779 --> 00:26:31,909
that doesn't really exist when you want

576
00:26:36,789 --> 00:26:34,789
to say I'm still about love I'm still

577
00:26:39,970 --> 00:26:36,799
about caring for the people I care about

578
00:26:43,779 --> 00:26:39,980
how is that really consistent with this

579
00:26:46,450 --> 00:26:43,789
biological robot meme that Richard

580
00:26:55,470 --> 00:26:46,460
Dawkins gives us let's put to you this

581
00:26:58,180 --> 00:26:55,480
way let's a grant with many philosophers

582
00:27:00,039 --> 00:26:58,190
materialists that we don't have free

583
00:27:01,450 --> 00:27:00,049
will just just grant it for a minute I

584
00:27:03,820 --> 00:27:01,460
know that you find that ludicrous but

585
00:27:05,889 --> 00:27:03,830
this is grant we don't have free well

586
00:27:09,610 --> 00:27:05,899
why don't you find it ludicrous to by

587
00:27:12,580 --> 00:27:09,620
the way but go ahead I'm sorry I mean I

588
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:12,590
suspect that you find it ludicrous you

589
00:27:16,090 --> 00:27:14,480
don't live your life like you don't have

590
00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:16,100
free will of course you lived her life

591
00:27:20,590 --> 00:27:18,500
everyday look but go ahead well yeah

592
00:27:23,049 --> 00:27:20,600
right right and so uh so I so I make

593
00:27:26,769 --> 00:27:23,059
choices and these choices affect people

594
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:26,779
and the people that matter to me and so

595
00:27:32,529 --> 00:27:30,080
I can't do any other and I I do make

596
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:32,539
choices and you know that's that's all

597
00:27:39,370 --> 00:27:36,770
there is to it I I don't find that you

598
00:27:43,019 --> 00:27:39,380
know the idea that I mean I like let me

599
00:27:45,159 --> 00:27:43,029
just say this way my specialty isn't in

600
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:45,169
discussions about free will I mean I

601
00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:47,690
have to stick to things that you know I

602
00:27:53,049 --> 00:27:50,960
have a specialty in but there are some

603
00:27:55,210 --> 00:27:53,059
brighter Minds than I who have looked at

604
00:27:57,399 --> 00:27:55,220
the issue you know naturalist's you know

605
00:27:59,139 --> 00:27:57,409
atheists materialists and they've

606
00:28:01,840 --> 00:27:59,149
concluded we don't have free will I find

607
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:01,850
their arguments pretty persuasive

608
00:28:07,419 --> 00:28:05,330
actually but but that doesn't change the

609
00:28:09,490 --> 00:28:07,429
thing it's like it's like living in a

610
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:09,500
matrix it doesn't change the thing let's

611
00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:11,090
say we are let's say everything is

612
00:28:13,210 --> 00:28:12,320
illusion let's say we have no free will

613
00:28:16,270 --> 00:28:13,220
it does

614
00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:16,280
change a thing we still have to act and

615
00:28:20,830 --> 00:28:17,750
we still have to make choices and we

616
00:28:23,860 --> 00:28:20,840
still have to decide based on the

617
00:28:25,690 --> 00:28:23,870
evidence you know what we will believe

618
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:25,700
now you say well all that is you know

619
00:28:32,380 --> 00:28:29,440
not not free inside you let's grant that

620
00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:32,390
what that does is it destroys

621
00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:34,220
Christianity as well and that's that's

622
00:28:38,649 --> 00:28:36,080
my point we have no free will it

623
00:28:41,370 --> 00:28:38,659
destroys Christianity as well because

624
00:28:44,020 --> 00:28:41,380
you know the free will unto salvation

625
00:28:47,620 --> 00:28:44,030
you know choice to believe in Jesus is

626
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:47,630
gone there's no there's no hell there's

627
00:28:53,710 --> 00:28:50,510
no there's no rational basis to believe

628
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:53,720
in in God either so but they still have

629
00:28:57,940 --> 00:28:55,730
to make the choices they do based on the

630
00:29:00,450 --> 00:28:57,950
evidence that they think is the case and

631
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:00,460
I'm even though even though we're both

632
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:02,450
potentially in the matrix even though

633
00:29:06,610 --> 00:29:05,210
we're we're both without free well when

634
00:29:09,970 --> 00:29:06,620
we still have these arguments and they

635
00:29:12,190 --> 00:29:09,980
still change minds and then I say oh

636
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:12,200
mines there are no mines we are

637
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:15,440
biological robots and rain look the

638
00:29:20,169 --> 00:29:17,690
brain look we can't we can't change

639
00:29:22,990 --> 00:29:20,179
brain's there again their robotic they

640
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:23,000
just act according to the preconceived

641
00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:25,610
this is ludicrous like like look I

642
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:27,140
understand where you're coming from

643
00:29:31,630 --> 00:29:29,840
you're focusing on Christianity and deep

644
00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:31,640
behind Christianity and there's a lot to

645
00:29:35,620 --> 00:29:33,289
be done there but I think you've kind of

646
00:29:38,529 --> 00:29:35,630
made my case to a certain extent this

647
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:38,539
low correctly it logically falls apart

648
00:29:44,049 --> 00:29:40,610
and moreover like I always tell people

649
00:29:46,029 --> 00:29:44,059
is you know your philosophy isn't as

650
00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:46,039
complicated as it seems it's how you

651
00:29:51,010 --> 00:29:48,950
live your life you know and a point to

652
00:29:53,470 --> 00:29:51,020
me the person who lives their life like

653
00:29:55,899 --> 00:29:53,480
love isn't real like connection with

654
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:55,909
people isn't real sure it's just it's

655
00:30:01,480 --> 00:29:58,880
silliness its absurdity in the same way

656
00:30:05,140 --> 00:30:01,490
that that some of this other stuff in

657
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:05,150
terms of biblical inerrancy gets into

658
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:07,520
the absurd really quickly when you

659
00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:11,090
follow it but i do think where that

660
00:30:16,330 --> 00:30:14,270
leads us then is to maybe re-examine

661
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:16,340
some of those assumptions that are

662
00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:20,480
underlying atheism underlying this idea

663
00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:23,240
that you know we are these biological

664
00:30:26,419 --> 00:30:24,980
robots but maybe that isn't something

665
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:26,429
you've really gone into

666
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:30,960
very far well I make I'll make an

667
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:33,450
argument that if that's the case you

668
00:30:38,989 --> 00:30:36,690
know if that's the case then you know

669
00:30:41,779 --> 00:30:38,999
there's simply there's no other way

670
00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:41,789
around living our lives like we do and

671
00:30:45,409 --> 00:30:43,679
making the arguments that we do but hold

672
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:45,419
on you can cut that chart and just say

673
00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:46,710
there's no reason to really live your

674
00:30:51,619 --> 00:30:49,769
life your life is an absurdity it makes

675
00:30:53,930 --> 00:30:51,629
no sense that when you get to the point

676
00:30:56,330 --> 00:30:53,940
of realizing that this is true to that

677
00:30:59,480 --> 00:30:56,340
extent there's really no the famous

678
00:31:01,489 --> 00:30:59,490
philosopher Albert Camus said this you

679
00:31:05,330 --> 00:31:01,499
know there's only one philosophical

680
00:31:07,940 --> 00:31:05,340
question suicide if you really believe

681
00:31:10,489 --> 00:31:07,950
that life is that meaningless there's no

682
00:31:13,070 --> 00:31:10,499
need to continue the meaninglessness

683
00:31:15,769 --> 00:31:13,080
there's no need for future generations

684
00:31:18,169 --> 00:31:15,779
or past generations or evolution it's

685
00:31:20,659 --> 00:31:18,179
all meaningless there's no reason to go

686
00:31:23,299 --> 00:31:20,669
on that's logical extension here and of

687
00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:23,309
course it's absurd but it's the

688
00:31:29,149 --> 00:31:25,289
absurdity of the Atheist position i

689
00:31:31,369 --> 00:31:29,159
should say well i think it's absurd to

690
00:31:33,649 --> 00:31:31,379
end your life i think we have the will

691
00:31:35,869 --> 00:31:33,659
to survive and you know that's that's

692
00:31:38,029 --> 00:31:35,879
all there is to it and you know to live

693
00:31:39,739 --> 00:31:38,039
one's life based on a delusion that

694
00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:39,749
there's a god is going to reward you

695
00:31:44,989 --> 00:31:43,320
into into heaven I think that's uh you

696
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:44,999
know that's even more absurd I think

697
00:31:48,859 --> 00:31:46,850
that we can do more or we can do better

698
00:31:51,739 --> 00:31:48,869
with this the only life we've been given

699
00:31:54,889 --> 00:31:51,749
I think that this universe is you know

700
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:54,899
quite remarkable for life and you know

701
00:31:59,450 --> 00:31:57,210
with us this extended as long as we can

702
00:32:01,489 --> 00:31:59,460
let's let's not have that nuclear

703
00:32:03,139 --> 00:32:01,499
warfare that the might ensue if

704
00:32:05,570 --> 00:32:03,149
believers get their hands on the trigger

705
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:05,580
and you know I do that for my posterity

706
00:32:09,619 --> 00:32:07,110
I do that for my kids I do that for

707
00:32:11,149 --> 00:32:09,629
future generations let's let's extend

708
00:32:12,289 --> 00:32:11,159
this let's see let's see how long we can

709
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:12,299
live on earth let's see what we can

710
00:32:18,230 --> 00:32:14,970
accomplish now I'll never see it but you

711
00:32:21,139 --> 00:32:18,240
know that's that's not absurd to to want

712
00:32:23,180 --> 00:32:21,149
that given the fact that this is quite a

713
00:32:27,259 --> 00:32:23,190
remarkable experiment they you know you

714
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:27,269
you might think that that that's absurd

715
00:32:33,139 --> 00:32:30,480
but like i said it's more absurd I mean

716
00:32:35,599 --> 00:32:33,149
it's absurd to the core to live one

717
00:32:37,789 --> 00:32:35,609
one's life on a delusion I mean except

718
00:32:39,340 --> 00:32:37,799
the fact whatever the facts are there's

719
00:32:43,510 --> 00:32:39,350
no reason why any

720
00:32:46,330 --> 00:32:43,520
and should reject a conclusion if the

721
00:32:48,820 --> 00:32:46,340
evidence points to that conclusion just

722
00:32:50,620 --> 00:32:48,830
because they don't like the conclusion

723
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:50,630
and I find a lot of Christians do that

724
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:53,450
they simply well we reject the we reject

725
00:32:58,210 --> 00:32:56,090
the outsider test of faith or reject you

726
00:33:01,150 --> 00:32:58,220
know atheist sums conclusion that all we

727
00:33:02,110 --> 00:33:01,160
are is as biology in motion they reject

728
00:33:03,789 --> 00:33:02,120
that because they don't like the

729
00:33:05,620 --> 00:33:03,799
conclusion and the conclusion is you

730
00:33:07,630 --> 00:33:05,630
know maybe we don't have free will and

731
00:33:10,390 --> 00:33:07,640
maybe our life isn't going to be

732
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:10,400
meaningful for you know you know in a

733
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:12,770
million years you know that well that's

734
00:33:16,180 --> 00:33:14,450
that's rejecting the evidence for a

735
00:33:17,770 --> 00:33:16,190
conclusion based on the conclusion bite

736
00:33:20,409 --> 00:33:17,780
the bullet if the evidence is there bite

737
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:20,419
the bullet you know that I'm sorry you

738
00:33:25,510 --> 00:33:22,970
have to live life we are thrust into

739
00:33:28,060 --> 00:33:25,520
this life come you also said and or was

740
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:28,070
it start we're thrust into this life we

741
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:31,039
didn't ask to be here and so make the

742
00:33:36,730 --> 00:33:33,610
best of it and that's what we're doing

743
00:33:39,250 --> 00:33:36,740
okay let's get off the philosophy

744
00:33:41,740 --> 00:33:39,260
because I think it's maybe ridden that

745
00:33:43,659 --> 00:33:41,750
horse as far as we can and I appreciate

746
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:43,669
you you going in and digging into these

747
00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:47,090
things I understand that the main thrust

748
00:33:52,419 --> 00:33:48,950
of your work is this idea of debunking

749
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:52,429
Christianity you do a nice job on your

750
00:33:58,659 --> 00:33:55,250
blog of really as I mentioned earlier

751
00:34:02,730 --> 00:33:58,669
bringing up all the cultural issues that

752
00:34:04,779 --> 00:34:02,740
surround Christianity and christianity's

753
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:04,789
movement forward you know I mean I think

754
00:34:09,399 --> 00:34:07,190
there's a lot of sense among

755
00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:09,409
intellectual people and academic people

756
00:34:13,149 --> 00:34:11,510
that hey you know that's really not so

757
00:34:15,010 --> 00:34:13,159
much of an issue in our society anymore

758
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:15,020
and there's this waning of Christianity

759
00:34:18,849 --> 00:34:17,090
but I think what you do on your website

760
00:34:21,399 --> 00:34:18,859
is point out that that's not really

761
00:34:24,399 --> 00:34:21,409
always the case and there's is still

762
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:24,409
this strong cultural movement towards

763
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:29,330
this very bracketed kind of view of of

764
00:34:35,290 --> 00:34:31,970
the world that comes from Christian

765
00:34:40,720 --> 00:34:35,300
dogma that's my focus yes my focus is my

766
00:34:43,810 --> 00:34:40,730
niche it's basically a destructive kind

767
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:43,820
of a game that only use word game so

768
00:34:51,940 --> 00:34:46,970
much a strategy strategy would work my

769
00:34:52,510 --> 00:34:51,950
focus is on destroying destroying ideas

770
00:34:55,630 --> 00:34:52,520
it's

771
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:55,640
debunking and saying this is wrong and I

772
00:35:01,870 --> 00:34:58,370
doubt it there's no evidence for it I

773
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:01,880
don't necessarily focus on constructing

774
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:06,290
a metaphysical a naturalist worldview

775
00:35:11,860 --> 00:35:08,690
others do that much better than I do and

776
00:35:14,380 --> 00:35:11,870
I learn from them but i have a

777
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:14,390
single-minded purpose to debunk the

778
00:35:18,970 --> 00:35:16,970
influence of christianity in the society

779
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:18,980
and in the world and there are many

780
00:35:23,590 --> 00:35:20,570
reasons for and that's because i think

781
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:23,600
faith ultimately causes harm to the

782
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:26,210
people of faith and others as they are

783
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:28,370
involved in society and so if i can get

784
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:29,810
rid of that influence or if i can

785
00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:32,000
minimize it and even a small way for

786
00:35:36,070 --> 00:35:34,400
future generations i think that that's a

787
00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:36,080
good thing i think that people need to

788
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:37,310
think for themselves rather than

789
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:39,290
mindlessly quote from the Bible or the

790
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:41,930
theology based on it I've seen too much

791
00:35:47,140 --> 00:35:44,570
in my life that leads me to think people

792
00:35:48,730 --> 00:35:47,150
would be better off without it well I

793
00:35:51,010 --> 00:35:48,740
think we're probably in sync there I

794
00:35:54,940 --> 00:35:51,020
think I'm kind of an econo classed and a

795
00:35:56,410 --> 00:35:54,950
destroyer as well but I guess I've set

796
00:35:58,720 --> 00:35:56,420
my sights a little bit differently

797
00:36:00,280 --> 00:35:58,730
because the last topic I guess I'd bring

798
00:36:02,470 --> 00:36:00,290
up you talked about a lot of evidence

799
00:36:05,650 --> 00:36:02,480
there and that you are evidence-based

800
00:36:07,750 --> 00:36:05,660
what I really focused on is one

801
00:36:11,410 --> 00:36:07,760
falsifying the site this biological

802
00:36:13,450 --> 00:36:11,420
robot this mind equals brain idea it's

803
00:36:17,770 --> 00:36:13,460
falsified all over the place I mean I

804
00:36:20,830 --> 00:36:17,780
got dozens of very well qualified highly

805
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:20,840
respected researchers who suggest that

806
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:23,530
that's not the case one of the main

807
00:36:28,660 --> 00:36:25,850
topics we talked about in the show a lot

808
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:28,670
is near death experience research

809
00:36:33,270 --> 00:36:31,490
science published papers a lot of people

810
00:36:36,970 --> 00:36:33,280
don't know that there's over a hundred

811
00:36:39,580 --> 00:36:36,980
peer-reviewed scientific papers under

812
00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:39,590
death experience I'm wondering have you

813
00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:42,920
looked at near death experience science

814
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:44,960
at all have you dealt with it either on

815
00:36:49,210 --> 00:36:46,850
your blog I know it's not in your book

816
00:36:52,380 --> 00:36:49,220
because I look there any thoughts on

817
00:36:56,620 --> 00:36:52,390
that well Victor Stenger wrote a chapter

818
00:37:00,820 --> 00:36:56,630
where in my anthology the end of

819
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:00,830
Christianity where he looked at Dinesh

820
00:37:06,670 --> 00:37:04,610
D'Souza's claims of those sorts of

821
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:06,680
things a lot of one

822
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:08,210
Victor Stanger's been on the show I

823
00:37:11,740 --> 00:37:10,130
don't think he fared very well I don't

824
00:37:13,060 --> 00:37:11,750
think his chapter on near-death

825
00:37:15,460 --> 00:37:13,070
experience holds up he doesn't know what

826
00:37:17,410 --> 00:37:15,470
he's talking about but dinesh d'souza is

827
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:17,420
not a near-death experience researcher

828
00:37:22,030 --> 00:37:19,850
he's a christian apologist so one of the

829
00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:22,040
things i think a lot of atheists folks

830
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:24,470
don't understand is I'm not talking

831
00:37:29,140 --> 00:37:26,960
about people that have an axe to grind

832
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:29,150
I'm talking about people at University

833
00:37:33,580 --> 00:37:30,770
who are publishing in peer-reviewed

834
00:37:37,660 --> 00:37:33,590
journals these are not people who have a

835
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:37,670
preconceived idea or a thing that

836
00:37:41,650 --> 00:37:39,110
they're driving for they're saying this

837
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:41,660
is a medical mystery the doctor says hey

838
00:37:46,330 --> 00:37:44,090
this guy got up off the table after

839
00:37:49,060 --> 00:37:46,340
being resuscitated and said this is what

840
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:49,070
I saw that's a medical mystery i need to

841
00:37:53,890 --> 00:37:51,320
investigate anyone would be curious

842
00:37:55,930 --> 00:37:53,900
about investigating it so they have and

843
00:37:57,610 --> 00:37:55,940
this is what they found out that's

844
00:37:59,200 --> 00:37:57,620
evidence I think we have to just

845
00:38:02,710 --> 00:37:59,210
confront and deal with one way or

846
00:38:06,190 --> 00:38:02,720
another oh I agree angry you know all I

847
00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:06,200
can do is point you to the experts again

848
00:38:13,780 --> 00:38:09,110
that's not my focus you know a keith

849
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:13,790
augustine and michael martin the atheist

850
00:38:19,470 --> 00:38:16,610
philosopher and Keith are Augustine is I

851
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:19,480
think the executive director of secular

852
00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:22,130
the sea infidels calm what have you

853
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:24,950
there they've done a lot of research on

854
00:38:29,170 --> 00:38:26,690
on those sorts of things and I think

855
00:38:31,510 --> 00:38:29,180
they happen but that's okay that's okay

856
00:38:32,860 --> 00:38:31,520
no it's not it's not your thing I get it

857
00:38:34,690 --> 00:38:32,870
I mean but those people have done it but

858
00:38:37,330 --> 00:38:34,700
you know what you know I mean yeah I

859
00:38:39,550 --> 00:38:37,340
have a predisposition against those

860
00:38:41,860 --> 00:38:39,560
sorts of things because I have no clue

861
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:41,870
what the difference is between a mind

862
00:38:44,980 --> 00:38:43,490
and the brain is I don't know where the

863
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:44,990
mind is located i don't know how the

864
00:38:49,330 --> 00:38:47,510
mind works you know i know you can have

865
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:49,340
brain damage and all of a sudden it

866
00:38:53,590 --> 00:38:51,050
affects the mind not to explain that i

867
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:53,600
know i know there's a lot of things you

868
00:38:57,340 --> 00:38:55,280
know that can happen a stroke of seizure

869
00:38:59,320 --> 00:38:57,350
Alzheimer's you know why is that why is

870
00:39:00,730 --> 00:38:59,330
the mind affected by those things it

871
00:39:02,650 --> 00:39:00,740
seems like if you just started whittling

872
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:02,660
away with the brain you'd have no mind

873
00:39:08,620 --> 00:39:06,110
left now that seems to be as a

874
00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:08,630
supervening type of evidence over to

875
00:39:12,730 --> 00:39:11,390
these experiential claims and I would

876
00:39:14,410 --> 00:39:12,740
you know I I don't know I haven't done

877
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:14,420
those sorts of researchers but I know

878
00:39:18,310 --> 00:39:16,370
that there's a lot of things that near

879
00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:18,320
neurology is now discovering about the

880
00:39:22,299 --> 00:39:19,910
brain that explains anything

881
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:22,309
that we might want to explain now I I

882
00:39:27,849 --> 00:39:24,730
just find that sort of argument

883
00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:27,859
philosophical evidential as it is to to

884
00:39:31,930 --> 00:39:29,839
be supervening until I can see some

885
00:39:33,460 --> 00:39:31,940
clear evidence that you know ghosts

886
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:33,470
exists and I really understand how

887
00:39:38,140 --> 00:39:35,690
ghosts can walk through walls these

888
00:39:39,730 --> 00:39:38,150
movies these movies that depict ghost

889
00:39:41,349 --> 00:39:39,740
why are they standing on the ground you

890
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:41,359
know one of these ball into the middle

891
00:39:45,099 --> 00:39:43,010
of the earth I mean why did his floating

892
00:39:48,370 --> 00:39:45,109
in the air I mean these sorts of things

893
00:39:50,410 --> 00:39:48,380
you know they're just uh I have a

894
00:39:52,180 --> 00:39:50,420
predisposition to call them all loony

895
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:52,190
you know before looking and I know you

896
00:39:56,620 --> 00:39:54,770
disagree that's fine disagree but until

897
00:39:58,569 --> 00:39:56,630
you could explain why neurology is

898
00:40:00,490 --> 00:39:58,579
explaining more and more about why we

899
00:40:02,470 --> 00:40:00,500
think and what I mean how we learn to

900
00:40:04,930 --> 00:40:02,480
think and what reaching so the brain we

901
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:04,940
we think with and how to you know you

902
00:40:10,359 --> 00:40:07,250
know do brain surgery and use drugs to

903
00:40:12,279 --> 00:40:10,369
cure the mind then you know I honest I

904
00:40:13,870 --> 00:40:12,289
don't assent to the proposition that

905
00:40:15,730 --> 00:40:13,880
there's a mine in the first place I

906
00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:15,740
don't know I don't know a invisible

907
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:18,230
entity that can exist outside of a

908
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:19,910
physical body in the first place so

909
00:40:24,490 --> 00:40:21,680
where is it where's it exists this is my

910
00:40:26,049 --> 00:40:24,500
toes the next time I Nia you know why is

911
00:40:28,779 --> 00:40:26,059
it located up here why do you think the

912
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:28,789
mind is here not in my nose or why is it

913
00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:30,170
not my whole body and if it's my whole

914
00:40:33,789 --> 00:40:31,760
body well then why not identify it with

915
00:40:35,140 --> 00:40:33,799
my body I find interesting you wanted to

916
00:40:36,819 --> 00:40:35,150
interview me on the outside our test of

917
00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:36,829
faith and you have a pet peeve and you

918
00:40:39,940 --> 00:40:38,420
know free well I mean if you wanted if

919
00:40:41,170 --> 00:40:39,950
you want to interview someone about free

920
00:40:43,539 --> 00:40:41,180
will if you want to interview someone

921
00:40:45,069 --> 00:40:43,549
about near-death experiences well then

922
00:40:46,660 --> 00:40:45,079
why don't why don't you contact someone

923
00:40:49,710 --> 00:40:46,670
who wants to you know talk about dead

924
00:40:54,220 --> 00:40:49,720
who's done some research on it I have I

925
00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:54,230
am I got 200 shows you got it I mean you

926
00:40:57,849 --> 00:40:56,089
know I mean like you want to want to try

927
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:57,859
to play inside with you with the pulse

928
00:41:01,569 --> 00:40:59,839
percent so that talking about something

929
00:41:03,730 --> 00:41:01,579
I know about and you want to talk about

930
00:41:07,089 --> 00:41:03,740
things that you know I haven't commented

931
00:41:09,010 --> 00:41:07,099
on yet watch out i can i I don't get

932
00:41:11,890 --> 00:41:09,020
that you know I I hear that sometimes

933
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:11,900
John you can ask me you can ask me

934
00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:14,000
anything in this field you can ask me

935
00:41:19,269 --> 00:41:16,180
how Christianity you can ask me about

936
00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:19,279
you can ask me about anything your your

937
00:41:24,339 --> 00:41:20,960
view since your views intrigued me I

938
00:41:27,069 --> 00:41:24,349
have to say well okay yeah but I don't

939
00:41:30,910 --> 00:41:27,079
understand why I told you how I came at

940
00:41:33,580 --> 00:41:30,920
this right and uh I did the outsider

941
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:33,590
test for faith my point

942
00:41:39,250 --> 00:41:36,410
is really that this discussion is stuck

943
00:41:42,220 --> 00:41:39,260
in stupid the atheist vs christian

944
00:41:44,410 --> 00:41:42,230
debate is stuck on stupid and I'm tired

945
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:44,420
of it I'm tired of empty tombs and

946
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:47,330
codices and all this nonsense that

947
00:41:53,550 --> 00:41:50,510
doesn't get us to the real issue that we

948
00:41:57,250 --> 00:41:53,560
talked about of what are the claims of

949
00:41:59,650 --> 00:41:57,260
atheism if they stand up if they're the

950
00:42:01,840 --> 00:41:59,660
right claims then I'm on board I want to

951
00:42:04,330 --> 00:42:01,850
know what the truth is so if you can if

952
00:42:06,580 --> 00:42:04,340
you can defend those claims then go

953
00:42:08,140 --> 00:42:06,590
ahead and do it but I'm past I'm with

954
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:08,150
you let me just say I'm with you I'm

955
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:10,370
with you on the outsider test for faith

956
00:42:16,510 --> 00:42:13,310
I'm with you on debunking Christianity

957
00:42:18,850 --> 00:42:16,520
I'm saying dude turn the page and let's

958
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:18,860
get on to the real discussion I don't

959
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:20,690
know why you'd find that so offensive oh

960
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:24,530
I know I I didn't say I was offended I

961
00:42:29,230 --> 00:42:26,570
just said that you know you want to talk

962
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:29,240
about you know other things and that's

963
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:31,130
okay I mean let's just go with it I mean

964
00:42:37,030 --> 00:42:34,850
I i think that you know you think you

965
00:42:39,250 --> 00:42:37,040
you basically you're telling me okay now

966
00:42:41,980 --> 00:42:39,260
move on yeah Christian has been debunked

967
00:42:43,390 --> 00:42:41,990
now let's move on kinda kinda yeah I am

968
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:43,400
saying that's finest by I mean I

969
00:42:47,970 --> 00:42:45,710
understand the criticism I'm not moving

970
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:47,980
on though and the reason why is because

971
00:42:54,850 --> 00:42:51,770
there are still a majority of people out

972
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:54,860
in out there who are Christians I I just

973
00:42:59,620 --> 00:42:57,290
went to the creation museum in Kentucky

974
00:43:02,860 --> 00:42:59,630
a couple days ago I wrote about it on my

975
00:43:05,470 --> 00:43:02,870
blog would be August it would be august

976
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:05,480
eight you know on my blog I saw it there

977
00:43:08,620 --> 00:43:07,250
okay and you know I mean it's just

978
00:43:10,180 --> 00:43:08,630
ludicrous I mean you should see the

979
00:43:13,630 --> 00:43:10,190
number of people lined up for that and

980
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:13,640
the money that it takes two to build

981
00:43:16,750 --> 00:43:15,530
that and they're building a second part

982
00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:16,760
to it where they're going to have a

983
00:43:20,290 --> 00:43:18,830
life-sized Noah's are and there are

984
00:43:23,470 --> 00:43:20,300
people paying twenty nine dollars you

985
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:23,480
know a hit to go through that and these

986
00:43:27,130 --> 00:43:25,370
people throw will these people these

987
00:43:29,830 --> 00:43:27,140
people write letters to the Senators and

988
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:29,840
that their danger to society I mean and

989
00:43:33,010 --> 00:43:31,730
all I can do is argue them out of it and

990
00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:33,020
I'm going to continue doing that because

991
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:35,960
that's my expertise now you know others

992
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:38,090
you know I can't know everything I mean

993
00:43:42,700 --> 00:43:39,890
you gotta admit that I mean with

994
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:42,710
yourself no one can know everything so

995
00:43:46,210 --> 00:43:44,480
I'm going to focus because I think

996
00:43:48,130 --> 00:43:46,220
that's where my

997
00:43:50,530 --> 00:43:48,140
expertise is and I'm going to continue

998
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:50,540
doing so I think that's good as I

999
00:43:54,730 --> 00:43:52,400
mentioned before I think there's a lot

1000
00:43:56,290 --> 00:43:54,740
of work to still be done there and I

1001
00:43:59,140 --> 00:43:56,300
think when we move past that and say oh

1002
00:44:01,630 --> 00:43:59,150
wow that's that's you know handle where

1003
00:44:03,460 --> 00:44:01,640
we're way past that it's it's not true

1004
00:44:04,990 --> 00:44:03,470
and I think you point that out but i do

1005
00:44:06,970 --> 00:44:05,000
think as you were scrambling around

1006
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:06,980
they're trying to do your mind equals

1007
00:44:13,089 --> 00:44:10,160
brain thing I you know I understand the

1008
00:44:16,089 --> 00:44:13,099
scramble let's that's fair but it

1009
00:44:17,620 --> 00:44:16,099
doesn't hold up okay mind equals brain

1010
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:17,630
doesn't hold up the near-death

1011
00:44:23,109 --> 00:44:20,570
experience science is solid Vic Stanger

1012
00:44:25,180 --> 00:44:23,119
go listen to the interview he's quoting

1013
00:44:26,170 --> 00:44:25,190
the wrong people just like just like you

1014
00:44:29,230 --> 00:44:26,180
are these are not people who've

1015
00:44:31,210 --> 00:44:29,240
published in peer-reviewed so uh just

1016
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:31,220
for your listeners I mean your listeners

1017
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:34,490
with know your views more than my

1018
00:44:41,020 --> 00:44:37,760
listeners would know your views you you

1019
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:41,030
don't accept Christianity what do you

1020
00:44:47,740 --> 00:44:43,490
accept justjust state briefly for my

1021
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:47,750
listeners you know on understanding well

1022
00:44:51,849 --> 00:44:50,090
I I always think that's that's a funny

1023
00:44:53,890 --> 00:44:51,859
question because it kind of gets to the

1024
00:44:57,010 --> 00:44:53,900
problem it's like okay if you're not

1025
00:44:59,920 --> 00:44:57,020
Christian what are you in terms of this

1026
00:45:02,200 --> 00:44:59,930
ass guys no no I'm that's especially now

1027
00:45:04,570 --> 00:45:02,210
that that's that's fine but I think it's

1028
00:45:06,220 --> 00:45:04,580
part of the problem it's like it's the

1029
00:45:07,630 --> 00:45:06,230
problem really that you deal with is

1030
00:45:09,579 --> 00:45:07,640
that that's how we think of things we

1031
00:45:11,170 --> 00:45:09,589
think of things in such a religious

1032
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:11,180
framework that if someone doesn't

1033
00:45:14,740 --> 00:45:13,040
immediately sign up with one or the

1034
00:45:18,609 --> 00:45:14,750
other we don't know quite how to pay him

1035
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:18,619
all I can say is that when we falsify

1036
00:45:23,410 --> 00:45:21,200
the idea that you are this biological

1037
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:23,420
robot we accept that that's absurd of

1038
00:45:27,730 --> 00:45:25,250
course I have free well I do what I I

1039
00:45:29,530 --> 00:45:27,740
can want me to raise my hand I raised my

1040
00:45:31,870 --> 00:45:29,540
hand free will I did it there I just

1041
00:45:34,540 --> 00:45:31,880
proved the test once we get past that

1042
00:45:37,540 --> 00:45:34,550
and once we get past the idea that

1043
00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:37,550
consciousness ends at death which is

1044
00:45:41,620 --> 00:45:40,040
again like you said before only I don't

1045
00:45:43,630 --> 00:45:41,630
think you want to accept it but that's

1046
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:43,640
where the evidence points it just points

1047
00:45:48,849 --> 00:45:45,890
that way I don't know what that means

1048
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:48,859
John but as you said with the planks

1049
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:52,250
thing the planks in the boat when I

1050
00:45:58,089 --> 00:45:55,730
cross that chasm and I say okay that's

1051
00:45:59,830 --> 00:45:58,099
the evidence and I have to deal with it

1052
00:46:02,890 --> 00:45:59,840
a lot of things

1053
00:46:05,650 --> 00:46:02,900
are falling differently in terms of how

1054
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:05,660
I orient myself to the world how it

1055
00:46:11,590 --> 00:46:08,510
orient myself to other people how I

1056
00:46:14,890 --> 00:46:11,600
orient myself to morals purpose meaning

1057
00:46:17,020 --> 00:46:14,900
in life so that is what I'm exploring

1058
00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:17,030
but I'm exploring it from the other side

1059
00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:19,280
of the chasm if you will other side of

1060
00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:21,680
the chasm being consciousness survives

1061
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:24,110
death let's let's put that as the you

1062
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:25,520
know you are not you are not a

1063
00:46:33,190 --> 00:46:29,690
biological robot well you are you okay

1064
00:46:37,540 --> 00:46:33,200
all right fine I mean I disagree and

1065
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:37,550
I've said why so um looks like of course

1066
00:46:43,090 --> 00:46:39,890
you guys are great you stand up and say

1067
00:46:44,890 --> 00:46:43,100
I am a biological robot I am gonna stand

1068
00:46:47,140 --> 00:46:44,900
by that well there's no evidence for

1069
00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:47,150
invisible beings or entities hey but but

1070
00:46:51,550 --> 00:46:49,280
you as you live your life you live your

1071
00:46:55,810 --> 00:46:51,560
life like a biological robot everybody

1072
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:55,820
does some it's all there is okay well um

1073
00:47:01,690 --> 00:46:58,130
you know uh you know you have to look

1074
00:47:03,100 --> 00:47:01,700
into the philosophical quandary with the

1075
00:47:05,470 --> 00:47:03,110
you know trying to distinguish between

1076
00:47:07,150 --> 00:47:05,480
mind and body I mean I mean I talked in

1077
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:07,160
adduction philosophy classes that you

1078
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:09,110
would probably be interested in looking

1079
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:11,930
at you know how they have tried to

1080
00:47:16,270 --> 00:47:14,810
relate the mind and the body and you

1081
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:16,280
know they just really can't do it I mean

1082
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:18,800
it's really ludicrous to see to how they

1083
00:47:23,890 --> 00:47:21,920
do then and you need to look at the

1084
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:23,900
mind-body problem I mean look at it

1085
00:47:27,790 --> 00:47:25,730
reasonably Phil's philosophic I I know

1086
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:27,800
that you say what we have evidence for

1087
00:47:31,570 --> 00:47:29,330
life after death but there's this

1088
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:31,580
contrary studies I mentioned a couple of

1089
00:47:35,530 --> 00:47:33,650
you know Michel Martin's doing and Keith

1090
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:35,540
Augustine you don't like Victor Stenger

1091
00:47:41,290 --> 00:47:38,000
so views okay fine but but there are

1092
00:47:42,850 --> 00:47:41,300
certainly contrary you know evidence and

1093
00:47:44,530 --> 00:47:42,860
arguments that's cool hey i just talked

1094
00:47:46,060 --> 00:47:44,540
to stephen law I just talked to Stephen

1095
00:47:49,180 --> 00:47:46,070
law a couple weeks ago atheist

1096
00:47:52,090 --> 00:47:49,190
philosopher at university of london PhD

1097
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:52,100
in philosophy from Oxford or Cambridge

1098
00:47:55,270 --> 00:47:54,170
I'm sorry which one I got wrong but you

1099
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:55,280
know you probably like he probably

1100
00:47:59,830 --> 00:47:58,160
blindsided him too did I get this all

1101
00:48:02,140 --> 00:47:59,840
the time flying said it how are you

1102
00:48:04,180 --> 00:48:02,150
drying sided how are you blind side why

1103
00:48:07,090 --> 00:48:04,190
can't you talk about this why can't you

1104
00:48:09,490 --> 00:48:07,100
why wouldn't you be equipped to talk

1105
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:09,500
about this I'll tell you what what it is

1106
00:48:13,630 --> 00:48:13,250
the fact that you feel blindsided says

1107
00:48:14,829 --> 00:48:13,640
you have

1108
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:14,839
looked into this enough because these

1109
00:48:19,390 --> 00:48:17,599
are core questions core questions so

1110
00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:19,400
you're going around like a gadfly like

1111
00:48:23,230 --> 00:48:21,529
Socrates and try to ask people about

1112
00:48:26,740 --> 00:48:23,240
questions that they haven't studied up

1113
00:48:29,319 --> 00:48:26,750
on 22 well yeah all right if I may do

1114
00:48:31,089 --> 00:48:29,329
that you know you're trying to get

1115
00:48:33,339 --> 00:48:31,099
atheist to to look at the evidence that

1116
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:33,349
you consider to be there even though you

1117
00:48:37,809 --> 00:48:35,450
reject Christianity and you know that's

1118
00:48:39,579 --> 00:48:37,819
fine but I'm not I'm not the one to ask

1119
00:48:42,190 --> 00:48:39,589
on those things I mean I said what my

1120
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:42,200
focus is and you know i think that the

1121
00:48:47,019 --> 00:48:44,960
conclusions that that there is a mind I

1122
00:48:49,210 --> 00:48:47,029
you know just don't hold up I mean not

1123
00:48:50,890 --> 00:48:49,220
at all and from what I stayed now you

1124
00:48:52,359 --> 00:48:50,900
say well why are we excited this well I

1125
00:48:55,180 --> 00:48:52,369
don't worry a lot about politics either

1126
00:48:57,460 --> 00:48:55,190
I mean you know I have you have you what

1127
00:48:59,740 --> 00:48:57,470
if you blindsided me him by by asking me

1128
00:49:02,289 --> 00:48:59,750
about gun control in America I mean well

1129
00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:02,299
I have some ideas on and I can point you

1130
00:49:06,839 --> 00:49:03,950
to some some writings about I wouldn't

1131
00:49:09,009 --> 00:49:06,849
what if you ask me about you know

1132
00:49:12,279 --> 00:49:09,019
immigration reform what did you ask me

1133
00:49:13,630 --> 00:49:12,289
about Obamacare I mean you can do that

1134
00:49:15,279 --> 00:49:13,640
if you want but you're asking the wrong

1135
00:49:16,839 --> 00:49:15,289
person I would have to say well you know

1136
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:16,849
you ought to talk to this expert you got

1137
00:49:20,799 --> 00:49:18,650
to talk to that expert I mean we can't

1138
00:49:22,569 --> 00:49:20,809
know everything is and it's ludicrous

1139
00:49:24,490 --> 00:49:22,579
for you to think that I'm supposed to

1140
00:49:28,319 --> 00:49:24,500
know everything John what do you feel

1141
00:49:32,049 --> 00:49:28,329
most blindsided by in this interview

1142
00:49:34,029 --> 00:49:32,059
well I believe you you would ask me to

1143
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:34,039
talk about the outsider test for faith

1144
00:49:38,620 --> 00:49:36,890
and we're not well well but what in

1145
00:49:41,049 --> 00:49:38,630
particular did we talk about that you

1146
00:49:42,730 --> 00:49:41,059
felt most blindsided well I to attacks

1147
00:49:44,589 --> 00:49:42,740
Alex if you have if you don't have

1148
00:49:46,990 --> 00:49:44,599
anything else more to say than what

1149
00:49:48,519 --> 00:49:47,000
you've said then let's call us today now

1150
00:49:50,370 --> 00:49:48,529
don't know conclude by that that i'm

1151
00:49:53,019 --> 00:49:50,380
giving up don't conclude my net today Oh

1152
00:49:54,940 --> 00:49:53,029
Loftus couldn't answer my questions you

1153
00:49:56,410 --> 00:49:54,950
know that be ludicrous as well I'm just

1154
00:49:59,529 --> 00:49:56,420
saying are you want to talk about the

1155
00:50:01,150 --> 00:49:59,539
the topic or not i mean and i gather you

1156
00:50:03,370 --> 00:50:01,160
don't and that's okay let's just call it

1157
00:50:06,279 --> 00:50:03,380
a day I've got other things to do I I

1158
00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:06,289
hear you and I appreciate the hour and I

1159
00:50:10,779 --> 00:50:08,630
appreciate your work and the book thank

1160
00:50:14,890 --> 00:50:10,789
you so much i wish i wish you would just

1161
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:14,900
tackle that that last question but if

1162
00:50:18,609 --> 00:50:16,400
you don't want to you don't have to but

1163
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:18,619
what did you feel you were most

1164
00:50:24,819 --> 00:50:22,250
blindsided by well I said I'll let the

1165
00:50:26,930 --> 00:50:24,829
listeners decide for themselves on this

1166
00:50:31,069 --> 00:50:26,940
but I don't want to discount you

1167
00:50:33,620 --> 00:50:31,079
questions I don't want to I think that

1168
00:50:37,460 --> 00:50:33,630
you might be doing a service to atheists

1169
00:50:40,579 --> 00:50:37,470
by braising these questions I you know

1170
00:50:43,490 --> 00:50:40,589
and so continue that I encouraged the

1171
00:50:45,230 --> 00:50:43,500
exploration of all the ideas let's say

1172
00:50:46,849 --> 00:50:45,240
that the you know we do have free will

1173
00:50:49,849 --> 00:50:46,859
let's say that there is an afterlife

1174
00:50:53,660 --> 00:50:49,859
let's say that sounds sort of like a

1175
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:53,670
deist position to me now adeus I'm not

1176
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:55,440
trying to put a label on you not

1177
00:51:02,390 --> 00:50:57,690
necessarily but go ahead keep going okay

1178
00:51:05,690 --> 00:51:02,400
fine and the disposition is I think the

1179
00:51:07,790 --> 00:51:05,700
only other reasonable position to take I

1180
00:51:11,530 --> 00:51:07,800
mean I think that it is within the realm

1181
00:51:16,089 --> 00:51:11,540
of reason in fact deism started as a

1182
00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:16,099
movement in England I think in the 1600s

1183
00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:19,680
1700s where they wanted to evaluate

1184
00:51:24,670 --> 00:51:21,569
everything based on reason you know

1185
00:51:27,559 --> 00:51:24,680
reason and evidence and you know deism

1186
00:51:30,020 --> 00:51:27,569
quickly degenerated into atheism but

1187
00:51:31,819 --> 00:51:30,030
they're still dias you know around and

1188
00:51:34,250 --> 00:51:31,829
you know Dawkins I think Christopher

1189
00:51:35,870 --> 00:51:34,260
Hitchens said that the only kind of God

1190
00:51:39,290 --> 00:51:35,880
or religion they might accept would be

1191
00:51:41,690 --> 00:51:39,300
deism as a mere possibility so that's

1192
00:51:43,490 --> 00:51:41,700
fine that's fine and pursue your if

1193
00:51:47,630 --> 00:51:43,500
that's what you are pursue those kinds

1194
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:47,640
of questions and so but support me in my

1195
00:51:52,550 --> 00:51:49,530
work I think you do support me and my

1196
00:51:55,069 --> 00:51:52,560
work as I attack these the

1197
00:51:56,900 --> 00:51:55,079
fundamentalist Christians because you

1198
00:52:00,109 --> 00:51:56,910
and I are an agreement on this you're

1199
00:52:02,839 --> 00:52:00,119
not my enemy you are my friend as you as

1200
00:52:05,599 --> 00:52:02,849
you tackle those issues as well okay

1201
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:05,609
thanks again the book is the outsider

1202
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:07,680
test for faith which we didn't talk

1203
00:52:11,660 --> 00:52:10,050
about much you know what if for the

1204
00:52:13,490 --> 00:52:11,670
folks are going to tune out after the

1205
00:52:15,950 --> 00:52:13,500
first ten minutes take they I think they

1206
00:52:17,839 --> 00:52:15,960
heard a lot about it and you can find

1207
00:52:19,309 --> 00:52:17,849
out a lot about the outsider test

1208
00:52:22,910 --> 00:52:19,319
there's a lot of good material out there

1209
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:22,920
there's on John's blog debunking

1210
00:52:28,250 --> 00:52:26,640
Christianity blogspot com he talks about

1211
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:28,260
it and there's many reviews on there

1212
00:52:31,790 --> 00:52:29,730
there's tons reviews on Amazon it's a

1213
00:52:34,370 --> 00:52:31,800
very popular book well received the

1214
00:52:38,510 --> 00:52:34,380
outsider test for faith how to know

1215
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:38,520
which religion is true John W Loftus

1216
00:52:42,380 --> 00:52:40,770
thanks for joining me out of there

1217
00:52:44,660 --> 00:52:42,390
listen one of the toughest skeptical

1218
00:52:45,860 --> 00:52:44,670
interviews I've ever had man I I hope

1219
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:45,870
the rest of your day goes better than

1220
00:52:52,310 --> 00:52:49,290
this hour I'm doing fine thank you sorry

1221
00:52:54,770 --> 00:52:52,320
buddy thanks again to John for joining

1222
00:52:57,590 --> 00:52:54,780
me today on skeptic Oh as is becoming

1223
00:52:59,830 --> 00:52:57,600
more and more my custom here on skeptic

1224
00:53:03,800 --> 00:52:59,840
oh I did have quite an interesting

1225
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:03,810
follow-up email exchange with John and I

1226
00:53:08,690 --> 00:53:05,970
really can't resist sharing it with you

1227
00:53:12,230 --> 00:53:08,700
here goes here's my email to john a day

1228
00:53:14,270 --> 00:53:12,240
or two after the podcast hi john was

1229
00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:14,280
thinking about our interview yesterday

1230
00:53:21,350 --> 00:53:18,720
and how you felt blind sided now I'm not

1231
00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:21,360
sure how a guy with a master's degree in

1232
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:24,240
philosophy who's written three books on

1233
00:53:30,050 --> 00:53:28,290
atheism could be blindsided by basic

1234
00:53:33,020 --> 00:53:30,060
questions about the philosophy of

1235
00:53:35,330 --> 00:53:33,030
atheism but if that's how you felt then

1236
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:35,340
maybe we can fix it why don't you come

1237
00:53:40,490 --> 00:53:38,610
back on skip to go for a redo you'll

1238
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:40,500
have the advantage of knowing everything

1239
00:53:44,750 --> 00:53:42,810
i'm going to ask and you'll have plenty

1240
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:44,760
of time to prepare your counter

1241
00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:47,520
arguments john i know these kind of

1242
00:53:52,430 --> 00:53:50,070
dialogues can be a bit uncomfortable but

1243
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:52,440
like you say in your book we have to be

1244
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:54,570
willing to look at our beliefs as an

1245
00:54:01,370 --> 00:53:57,210
outsider if we're ever going to nudge

1246
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:01,380
closer to the truth Alex John's response

1247
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:04,530
and in order to kind of shorten up this

1248
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:07,170
podcast here I'm going to thread in his

1249
00:54:12,050 --> 00:54:10,290
response with my response back to him

1250
00:54:13,610 --> 00:54:12,060
which is the last we hear from him we

1251
00:54:16,220 --> 00:54:13,620
never hear from him after this even

1252
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:16,230
though I asked for him to respond and

1253
00:54:20,450 --> 00:54:18,480
you'll hear what I asked for him to do

1254
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:20,460
but there's no response from John after

1255
00:54:26,540 --> 00:54:23,010
this so here's john's email to me with

1256
00:54:29,060 --> 00:54:26,550
my response john writes your God can

1257
00:54:32,090 --> 00:54:29,070
safely be ignored as irrelevant and

1258
00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:32,100
unnecessary a hypothesis we don't have

1259
00:54:38,330 --> 00:54:35,700
any need for even if he or she exists I

1260
00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:38,340
mean why bother with the passion you

1261
00:54:43,850 --> 00:54:41,280
seem to have for the DEA's God or the

1262
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:43,860
god of the Philosopher's why would

1263
00:54:50,590 --> 00:54:46,890
anyone care as much as you do about such

1264
00:54:53,150 --> 00:54:50,600
a god that is a mere curiosity I reply

1265
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:53,160
where are you getting this from

1266
00:54:58,250 --> 00:54:54,960
I didn't even mention God in our

1267
00:55:01,609 --> 00:54:58,260
interview John continues you know

1268
00:55:04,460 --> 00:55:01,619
nothing about him or her God that is you

1269
00:55:07,789 --> 00:55:04,470
believe she exists in an afterlife big

1270
00:55:10,609 --> 00:55:07,799
deal you should adopt a protest theology

1271
00:55:13,970 --> 00:55:10,619
like others have done and protest her

1272
00:55:16,609 --> 00:55:13,980
existence even if she exists she clearly

1273
00:55:19,339 --> 00:55:16,619
has left nebulous evidence that she

1274
00:55:22,069 --> 00:55:19,349
exists why does she need you to make her

1275
00:55:27,559 --> 00:55:22,079
case for what difference does it make to

1276
00:55:29,270 --> 00:55:27,569
it that it exists I reply again I think

1277
00:55:32,059 --> 00:55:29,280
you've kind of missed the thrust of our

1278
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:32,069
discussion so let me recap the three

1279
00:55:38,089 --> 00:55:35,760
main points number one atheists even

1280
00:55:39,529 --> 00:55:38,099
popular media savvy ones like you who

1281
00:55:42,799 --> 00:55:39,539
write books and give public

1282
00:55:44,690 --> 00:55:42,809
presentations often make claims example

1283
00:55:47,049 --> 00:55:44,700
we are biological robots life as

1284
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:47,059
meaningless consciousness is an illusion

1285
00:55:53,510 --> 00:55:50,970
without realizing the implications you

1286
00:55:55,789 --> 00:55:53,520
demonstrated this in our interview when

1287
00:55:58,339 --> 00:55:55,799
you seem genuinely confused when I

1288
00:56:00,940 --> 00:55:58,349
pointed out that your love for family

1289
00:56:04,059 --> 00:56:00,950
can be nothing more than a meaningless

1290
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:04,069
illusion according to your belief system

1291
00:56:10,730 --> 00:56:08,010
number two most atheists live their

1292
00:56:13,609 --> 00:56:10,740
lives in a way that is inconsistent with

1293
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:13,619
their stated beliefs I think you do care

1294
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:16,650
about your family I think you do act as

1295
00:56:22,099 --> 00:56:19,770
if your choices matter I think you do

1296
00:56:24,250 --> 00:56:22,109
think you are doing good in the world by

1297
00:56:27,289 --> 00:56:24,260
countering the negative impact of

1298
00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:27,299
fundamentalist religions but during our

1299
00:56:33,260 --> 00:56:30,089
interview you seem to be unable to

1300
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:33,270
resolve the absurdity of your bite the

1301
00:56:40,490 --> 00:56:36,089
bullet we're all just biological robots

1302
00:56:43,339 --> 00:56:40,500
with the life you live number three new

1303
00:56:45,559 --> 00:56:43,349
atheists are in a stuck on stupid debate

1304
00:56:47,529 --> 00:56:45,569
with fundamentalist Christians when the

1305
00:56:49,930 --> 00:56:47,539
real action is whether or not

1306
00:56:52,670 --> 00:56:49,940
consciousness is an illusion if

1307
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:52,680
consciousness is more than an epiphone

1308
00:56:58,400 --> 00:56:55,650
amin of the brain as the data suggests

1309
00:57:01,670 --> 00:56:58,410
and if consciousness survives bodily

1310
00:57:04,279 --> 00:57:01,680
death as the data suggests then we have

1311
00:57:06,370 --> 00:57:04,289
to take seriously questions about the

1312
00:57:08,770 --> 00:57:06,380
order in meaning of

1313
00:57:11,350 --> 00:57:08,780
you don't have to be an expert in

1314
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:11,360
consciousness science to see that this

1315
00:57:18,310 --> 00:57:14,510
leaves little room for your new brand of

1316
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:18,320
atheism now back to john's email if we

1317
00:57:24,610 --> 00:57:21,290
survive death than we do it changes

1318
00:57:27,970 --> 00:57:24,620
nothing I reply you're kind of making my

1319
00:57:30,900 --> 00:57:27,980
points for me if we survive death then

1320
00:57:34,030 --> 00:57:30,910
we are not an illusion we are not

1321
00:57:37,150 --> 00:57:34,040
biological robots this changes

1322
00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:37,160
everything for the new atheist crowd as

1323
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:39,710
well as for the materialistic science

1324
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:43,310
crowd in general back to john's email we

1325
00:57:48,700 --> 00:57:46,640
should still be good to people we should

1326
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:48,710
still investigate the world through

1327
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:52,930
science let science do its work my reply

1328
00:57:59,440 --> 00:57:56,090
why I'm surprised you keep stumbling

1329
00:58:01,510 --> 00:57:59,450
over this this is atheism 101 first off

1330
00:58:04,780 --> 00:58:01,520
how are you defining good in your

1331
00:58:09,910 --> 00:58:04,790
meaningless world / universe and second

1332
00:58:12,190 --> 00:58:09,920
why should we should anything John no I

1333
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:12,200
must devote my time to more important

1334
00:58:18,370 --> 00:58:15,410
things I cannot accept anything based on

1335
00:58:21,580 --> 00:58:18,380
faith and that is all you have despite

1336
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:21,590
any protestations from you solve the

1337
00:58:27,550 --> 00:58:24,770
brain mind problem first look into

1338
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:27,560
neurology there is your answer then

1339
00:58:32,830 --> 00:58:30,650
simply bite the bullet since evolution

1340
00:58:36,820 --> 00:58:32,840
is the case then humans go we're all

1341
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:36,830
animals go when we die we all rot in the

1342
00:58:42,670 --> 00:58:40,850
ground period if instead all animals

1343
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:42,680
live forever then it wouldn't be

1344
00:58:47,950 --> 00:58:45,170
anything special for all of us to go

1345
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:47,960
there that existence would be just

1346
00:58:53,350 --> 00:58:51,200
another world like ours who cares if

1347
00:58:57,550 --> 00:58:53,360
you're correct except as a mere

1348
00:59:00,400 --> 00:58:57,560
curiosity I'm all for being curious we

1349
00:59:03,550 --> 00:59:00,410
need to be curious but I intend to

1350
00:59:08,290 --> 00:59:03,560
change the religious landscape that's my

1351
00:59:10,390 --> 00:59:08,300
focus my response wow I'm really having

1352
00:59:12,910 --> 00:59:10,400
a hard time following your logic when

1353
00:59:15,010 --> 00:59:12,920
you say solve the brain mind problem it

1354
00:59:16,540 --> 00:59:15,020
makes me think that you understand the

1355
00:59:19,450 --> 00:59:16,550
consciousness is the fundamental

1356
00:59:20,140 --> 00:59:19,460
question to all this but then you slip

1357
00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:20,150
into this

1358
00:59:26,890 --> 00:59:22,569
bite the bullet were all just biological

1359
00:59:29,740 --> 00:59:26,900
robot stuff I agree let's not base our

1360
00:59:32,049 --> 00:59:29,750
beliefs on faith let's examine the data

1361
00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:32,059
shall we start with the near-death

1362
00:59:37,630 --> 00:59:35,089
experience science and I provided him

1363
00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:37,640
two links one to my interview with Jeff

1364
00:59:42,579 --> 00:59:39,920
long and then one to my follow-up

1365
00:59:45,220 --> 00:59:42,589
interview with Jeff long takes on the

1366
00:59:47,170 --> 00:59:45,230
critics of the afterlife back to john's

1367
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:47,180
email if you would like to interview

1368
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:49,010
someone on the issue of free will I

1369
00:59:55,390 --> 00:59:51,650
highly recommend Jonathan Pierce author

1370
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:55,400
of the book free will ? an investigation

1371
00:59:58,599 --> 00:59:56,930
into whether we have free will or

1372
01:00:02,890 --> 00:59:58,609
whether I was always going to write this

1373
01:00:05,109 --> 01:00:02,900
book my response sure happy to please

1374
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:05,119
pass along my invitation and I'll wait

1375
01:00:10,839 --> 01:00:07,930
for him to contact me in order to avoid

1376
01:00:13,539 --> 01:00:10,849
blindsiding you may want to suggest the

1377
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:13,549
following to Jonathan and I provided two

1378
01:00:19,269 --> 01:00:16,640
links episode 184 Rupert sheldrick sets

1379
01:00:21,490 --> 01:00:19,279
science free from dogma and the other

1380
01:00:24,099 --> 01:00:21,500
from my interview with dr. Mario

1381
01:00:27,069 --> 01:00:24,109
Beauregard by the way of course I have

1382
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:27,079
yet to hear from Jonathan Pierce and I

1383
01:00:32,349 --> 01:00:29,690
doubt I ever will but imitations there

1384
01:00:34,660 --> 01:00:32,359
love to have them on back to John's

1385
01:00:37,029 --> 01:00:34,670
email if you want to interview someone

1386
01:00:39,779 --> 01:00:37,039
about life after death then find Keith

1387
01:00:43,029 --> 01:00:39,789
Augustine at internet infidels I

1388
01:00:45,220 --> 01:00:43,039
response again I'd be happy to I've

1389
01:00:47,799 --> 01:00:45,230
invited him three times but he never

1390
01:00:50,980 --> 01:00:47,809
seems to have the time please pass along

1391
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:50,990
my invitation and I'll await his reply I

1392
01:00:56,170 --> 01:00:52,970
then mentioned that I have interviewed

1393
01:00:58,900 --> 01:00:56,180
many prominent in de skeptics including

1394
01:01:02,799 --> 01:00:58,910
the link including dr. Victor Stenger

1395
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:02,809
and dr. Susan Blackmore again I have yet

1396
01:01:07,630 --> 01:01:05,210
to hear from Keith Augustine but Keith

1397
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:07,640
if you're out there love to have you on

1398
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:09,490
skeptic Oh to talk about near-death

1399
01:01:15,010 --> 01:01:12,650
experience science finally wrapping up

1400
01:01:16,359 --> 01:01:15,020
John's e-mail he writes if you want to

1401
01:01:18,279 --> 01:01:16,369
interview someone about brain mine

1402
01:01:20,650 --> 01:01:18,289
problem then contact either Paul or

1403
01:01:22,180 --> 01:01:20,660
patricia churchland I've tried if you

1404
01:01:24,069 --> 01:01:22,190
want to interview a neuroscientist on

1405
01:01:25,779 --> 01:01:24,079
the same issue then contact David

1406
01:01:28,930 --> 01:01:25,789
Eagleman already did send them the link

1407
01:01:30,970 --> 01:01:28,940
then as his final word on whether or not

1408
01:01:33,039 --> 01:01:30,980
he'd like to come on for a redo I

1409
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:33,049
thought the very fair generous offer

1410
01:01:36,210 --> 01:01:33,850
someone who

1411
01:01:38,580 --> 01:01:36,220
deals blindsided I was willing to trash

1412
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:38,590
this initial interview into a total redo

1413
01:01:45,630 --> 01:01:43,090
but John's response was a no now I don't

1414
01:01:48,660 --> 01:01:45,640
feel a need to do a lot more interviews

1415
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:48,670
with these hardcore atheists or even the

1416
01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:50,890
atheists who are hardcore but don't

1417
01:01:56,670 --> 01:01:54,400
appear hardcore like Gary Marcus and dr.

1418
01:01:58,920 --> 01:01:56,680
Stephen law but again as I said in the

1419
01:02:02,490 --> 01:01:58,930
opening I think it's crucial that we

1420
01:02:05,580 --> 01:02:02,500
expose how intellectually feeble these

1421
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:05,590
arguments are and we contrast that with

1422
01:02:11,310 --> 01:02:07,930
the way that this silliness is propped

1423
01:02:13,350 --> 01:02:11,320
up in the mainstream science media okay

1424
01:02:15,660 --> 01:02:13,360
I have one question to tee up from this

1425
01:02:18,570 --> 01:02:15,670
debate and it was the one question I was

1426
01:02:21,180 --> 01:02:18,580
hoping to get to with John but wasn't

1427
01:02:23,850 --> 01:02:21,190
able to because well you see how the

1428
01:02:27,510 --> 01:02:23,860
interview went and that is to what

1429
01:02:30,900 --> 01:02:27,520
extent does this stuck on stupid debate

1430
01:02:33,540 --> 01:02:30,910
between christian apologist and atheists

1431
01:02:37,530 --> 01:02:33,550
prevent science from making progress on

1432
01:02:39,630 --> 01:02:37,540
the most fundamental issues of life who

1433
01:02:42,690 --> 01:02:39,640
are we where did we come from where do

1434
01:02:45,540 --> 01:02:42,700
we go big picture questions to what

1435
01:02:47,700 --> 01:02:45,550
extent is the debate holding us back of

1436
01:02:50,550 --> 01:02:47,710
course the place to respond to that

1437
01:02:53,090 --> 01:02:50,560
question or formulate a question of your

1438
01:02:58,140 --> 01:02:53,100
own is through the skeptical website at

1439
01:02:59,550 --> 01:02:58,150
SK EPT I k 0 com or you can leave a

1440
01:03:01,650 --> 01:02:59,560
comment right there in the comment

1441
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:01,660
section or click on over to the forum

1442
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:04,570
and join the discussion there we'll have

1443
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:06,610
a number of interesting shows coming up

1444
01:03:10,710 --> 01:03:08,770
quite a few in the hopper right don't

1445
01:03:12,990 --> 01:03:10,720
know which one I'm going to put out next

1446
01:03:16,650 --> 01:03:13,000
but you'll just have to wait and see I

1447
01:03:18,890 --> 01:03:16,660
guess until next time do take care and